Morgan Lerette ⋅ Glendale, AZ AAA ⋅ 6 years experience

This is a bit of a loaded question for an HR person. This is a chicken or egg argument; it has no answer. To restate it in simple terms: Does military experience count in the place of a degree? The answer is "no".

I'm former military (E and O) and, as I recall, the biggest gripe of obtaining career advancement was 1) checking the block and 2) "playing the game". You want to become and NCO, you have to attend AIT, ANOC, BNOC, ALS, etc. You want to become an officer, you have to attend college, BOLC I, OBC, CCC, ILE (kudos if you can keep track of those acronyms).

It should come as no surprise that the civilian world also has blocks which need to be checked for certain jobs and career advancement. If a person wants certain job, they may need a degree. Prior military service is not a "get out of checking the block" card. It is work experience. If a person graduates high school and works construction instead of becoming a civil engineer in the AF, they would need a degree to obtain the aforementioned position. Why should a veteran be different?

With the new GI Bill, there is almost no reason not to complete a degree post separation. If a veteran is "not good at school" or doesn't like it, join the club. College stinks and it is a time suck. No one likes college except the above frat guy and he will die alone reliving his glory days. If a soldier doesn't like PT or isn't good at it, they are not allowed to skip it and expect to be promoted. Have I created enough parallels here?

Bottom line: Military experience doesn't get you out of getting a degree. Choosing not to obtain one limits career advancement.

Rant complete.

Morgan

Phil C. ⋅ Fort Worth, TX ⋅ 3 years experience

"I realize my comments earlier sound lack of empathy."

em·pa·thy
noun \ˈem-pə-thē\

: the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings

We military veterans don't seek empathy. Life is too short for that. What we do seek is candor and honesty from professionals about ways we can make the smoothest transition possible. A useful college education is key to this. I wish I could find better ways to emphasize this to fellow veterans. However, that's why we have ACP, right?

Po Wong ⋅ Orlando, FL Johnson & Johnson (retired) ⋅ 40 years experience

Hi Phil,

Based on my experience as a Process Excellence Champion sponsor, obtain a black belt/master Black belt in LEAN six Sigma / PEx certification add lots of value on top of BS/BA or MBA degree. One with these certifications usually has priority consideration. It also gives the applicants flexibility applies jobs in Operations, manufacturing, engineering, Process improvement, project management…..

I realize my comments earlier sound lack of empathy. But the world has changed and with so many people with advanced degree (Master, MBA, PHD) search for jobs ( I know many..), people without at least a Bachelor degree will face a real challenging time even with extensive work experiences.

Phil C. ⋅ Fort Worth, TX ⋅ 3 years experience

Luis,

Good points. Hopefully retirees and those about to retire are paying attention to this thread. Tailoring a resume to the job being applied for seems like half the battle.

Po,

I guess that's a black and white issue right there. Get the degree, end of story! Here's a question. Would a certificate in project management, or something equivalent, be worth getting while pursuing the business degree(s) (BS/BA and MBA)? Are they worthwhile to get, or just another way for some educational institution to make money? In other words, do they doing any "block checking"?

Po Wong ⋅ Orlando, FL Johnson & Johnson (retired) ⋅ 40 years experience

Phil,
"Is there any value in the fact that the Dave Garza example was almost finished with his degree?"

No. almost doesn’t count. If Dave only needs few more courses to get his Bachelor degree, he should definitely try to finish and get the degree. Because many companies/recruiting agencies are now using computer software to screen applicants. A check mark on “have a college degree” could take him to the second round; without could be eliminated on the spot.

Diego Lopez ⋅ Washington, DC U.S. Navy, Petty Officer Second Class ⋅ 10 years served

Phil,

I'm also going into the HR field with 8 years experience in the military under my belt (Financial side + HR) plus a BA in Business Administration with an Masters Degree in progress. What I get from all these responses (as well as many other colleges) is the fact that job hunting is about "selling" your resume, not necessarily impress people with your skills/experience.

Remember that movie "Training Day" and the always brilliant Denzel Washington? "Is not what you know, is what you can prove!" So I guess the same applies to us: is not really what we have done, is what we can sell and point out in our resumes.

Tailoring your resume to the position you are applying for is a MUST!

Phil C. ⋅ Fort Worth, TX ⋅ 3 years experience

Po,

Thank you for your input and thank you for helping keep this thread alive. Is there any value in the fact that the Dave Garza example was almost finished with his degree? It almost seems as though we're ignoring this fact.

Po Wong ⋅ Orlando, FL Johnson & Johnson (retired) ⋅ 40 years experience

Hi Phil and all,

Good advices and comments on this question. In the real world, sadly, it is true most major companies definitely want to hire young college grads (MBAs preferred) and it is very difficult to find out who is the hiring manager.

The Dave Garza example is the toughest not only for ex-service members but also in general population –older workers with lots of working experience but no college degrees. People in this category need target, focus the on “right” jobs and set a realistic expectation to improve the success rate. Networking is the key!!

No way will Accenture or KPMG (they are looking for MBAs) hire Dave unless they have a very specific job for Military and Defense Industry. Better odd to get hire at Home Depot or Amazon Logistic as assistant manager or lead associates and work your way up. The main objective is getting the foot in the door and has a chance to show all the skills/experiences to deliver significant business results.

Is it fair for a Command Sergeant Major who can run major military operations effectively for 20 years(better than some start up CEOs) to work at Home Depot started as assistant manager? No. But without college degree, one might have to reset expectation. Getting another certification or two week classes most likely will not change the outcome. BTW, reset expectation also applies to senior officers. Say a retired colonel does not automatically equal to a VP level job …

Phil C. ⋅ Fort Worth, TX ⋅ 3 years experience

Everyone,

Thanks for the responses. The idea was to give any retirees or those fixing to retire an honest, no-BS, view on how HR operates. None of this is for me as I'm just trying to get good, honest, candid dialogue going. I'm blessed enough to have gotten my career started with a great company and I want to help others make the transition even better than I did. Those who had given 20+ years in enlisted service to their country I think have a rougher time than the one or two term guys and any commissioned officer. So Dave Garza vs Joe/Jane Smith will be our example for this thread.

Cindy,

Speaking of service. Would you be interested in learning how people serve their country. What about learning about the specific work products, enlisted career fields, and internal customers that are found within the military? There are hundreds to career fields, throughout the branches. Many involve finance, accounting, human resources, dental assistance, lab technology, electrical, logistics managment and so many others. Not everyone runs around in the woods with a rifle, grunting and barking or drives tanks.

Here's a good starting point if you are interested: http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs.html

Craig,

Thanks for the input. If we truly dig into military life and investigate, we'll find that the clean slate happens every few years. Our military is diverse, decentralized, and corporate-like in many ways. Each unit or command has a different way of conducting business with different processes, standards, and procedures. If we focus on Garza's background, which is VERY typical of most retirees, we will find that he was on the move a lot. He would have to be molded multiple times throughout his career after promotions and after moving to new units. That's how the military works and has worked for generations. Service members are adaptable, flexible and "mold"-able and that's a key theme of being a warrior. You can't fight and win any other way.

Bill,

That's brilliant advice. Bypassing HR sounds like the way to go. However, I put personal information "INTERESTS" on my resume and that actually put me over the top with my senior lead engineer. He had a vote on whether I was to be hired or not. I mentioned "playing guitar" and that sealed the deal. If most HR folks think we're brainwashed, emotionless robots, wouldn't putting something like that on a resume make us veterans seem more human?

Everyone,

Again, thanks for participating, I hope we can keep this thread going. Lets get back to Dave Garza. Would something like a certification in project management be a good thing to shoot for in lieu of a degree. Is it something that can be attained through two weeks of study and testing or requires coursework? Is there any other "block checking" that can be accomplished, before walking the stage, that could help him land the job?

Bill van Steenis ⋅ Holland, MI Prosource executive search, inc ⋅ 25 years experience

Phil, I've been in the executive search business for 25 years. Don't waste your time with HR people. Track down the hiring manager, that person that's staying late because he/she has an open position in their staff so they are staying late and doing the work.

Rule number 1. Companies only hire for one reason. TO SOLVE A PROBLEM THAT THEY DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO SOLVE. This isn't about you. It's only about one thing, solving their problem. If you can articulate how to do that then your chances go up exponentially toward getting hired. Your resume should be totally focused on solving the hiring managers problem and the fruit of problem solving is accomplishment. All successful resumes must be accomplishment driven. (Go to www.indemandpeople.com click on about, scroll down to candidate resources and download both resume formats and the sample resumes. It's all free)

You are making a transition from military into civilian work but the most likely company to hire you will be one that is involved with the military. I would be telling with defense contractors, weapons systems manufacturers, companies that sell anything to the military. Many of these companies hire former military personnel because they understand how the military operates.

Resumes have one function, to get you interviews. Resumes are no place for personal information about your family or anything personal. The reader doesn't care if you have a family or if you have a dog named Rufus. The only question they want answered is this: "can you solve my problem.

The degree is essential. I have only placed one person without a degree in 25 years. I'd be online on jigsaw.com and linkedin looking for hiring managers that have military backgrounds. I'd also ask to speak with these folks even for a few minutes and ask each of them how they made the transition. Ask them for their wisdom and advice. Don't screw around wasting your time sending resumes in. Target your search, find people that did what you hope to do and send them your resume. Call them first. Do your research, find out how to spell their name and call after 5 pm. They are often still there but the gate keeper is gone. I've made a lot of successful contacts this way. Any other questions you can email me directly at bill@reexaminelife.com. Thanks for your service!

Craig Bush ⋅ Boston, MA IBM ⋅ 11 years experience

Depends on the position and level. The truth of the matter is that a lot of job openings are simply below your level. Companies like to hire clean slates that they can then mold. As crazy as it sounds, there is risk in hiring experienced, older professionals.

The trick is communicating in business terms how you are a better fit for an experienced position. You'll need to demonstrate hard skill proficiency. All the soft skills, life experience and so forth mean less if you can't demonstrate proficiency in hard skills.

It's just that simple.

Cindy Munnell ⋅ Auburn, WA Boeing ⋅ 18 years experience

I've been working several years with recruiting efforts and I'd chose the new grad...here's why, (and I'm assuming you'll appreciate honesty even though it might hurt a bit);
Even though the retired military person may have been a viable candidate, with a very impressive list of experience, it's just that, an impressive history of serving our country which is hugely commendable. What it lacks, (and by the way, neither of these candidates have portrayed) is what you can do for my company and the postion I am seeking to fill. How can you help my bottom line? What about your skills and experience lead me to believe you're the person for the job? My instinct tells me that the new grad is malleable and trainable to fit my company's needs, especially because there is no work experience. The experienced military, even though may well be able to hit the ground running and be an excellent employee, with all that specific military experience listed, nothing is translated into more generic business type language. I'm skeptical and believe that person may have very ingrained ideas about things and could be difficult to adapt.

My advise to both - study any job posting and look for key words and phrases, especially anything that may be repeated, example; problem solving, strong interpersonal and communication skills. Proficiency in Microsoft Office applications, proficient in Word and Excel, critical thinker. THEN, on your resume, list how your experience and skills show you can do those things and have in the past. What did you do using those skills and competencies? What was the result of having you on an assignment or project? How did you execute your duties to make it a successful win/win for everyone?
Hope this helps some....take care.

Phil C. ⋅ Fort Worth, TX ⋅ 3 years experience

Morgan,

Thanks for you input. I do prefer people provide candid responses. Thank you for yours. I agree a college degree is a necessity and to think otherwise is just plain dumb. However, many of the Petty Officers and Noncommissioned Officers are retiring or being asked to retire as the total force draws down. Those are the folks I'm focused on in this thread. Not retiring/separating officers or one-term enlisted troops. Yes, there are some who believe they do not need college or want to go to college, but there are countless that realize they will need a college degree. That's why there are so many that are within a few semesters of finishing school and plan on continuing into grad school. There is the reality. We cannot ignore it. They are not asking for charity, sympathy, empathy, a free pass or any sort of pat on the back. One of the biggest things people sifting through piles of resumes should understand is how close so many retiring veterans are to obtaining a degree and their plans of pursuing grad school. They have certainly set a precedence of finishing what they started, so the risk is low. In no way, shape, or form am I implying that the example retiree is bypassing the degree or ignoring "the game". I have no clue where you got that idea.